cedar or pine

[Lakeview]

Hello, Thanks for all the reply!! I will keep all of them in mind! My issue of the day is cedar logs or pine logs? I want to get on the top of the mills delivery list. So that i can get my logs in time to get a nice start on it. We need 3000 lin feet and my best price so far here in maine is (3.00 for green pine/cabin grade) (4.00 for mill run grade pine KD 12%). I have almost totally made my mind up to get the mill run 6x8D. And today a fella called me and said that if we build with pine be prepaired to rebuild in ten years. He said to go with cedar only for no bugs or rot. He might be a SALESMAN. But I must say that i take car of everything that i own and i was reading that if you seal these pine homes every 3-5 years you will have no problem. Is this true? I guess you cant get a beter reply than someone that owns a pine log home. Also what is the R value config from Pine to cedar?

[David Blakely]

Hey Lake,
The R value difference is not significant. Treated (stained and maintained) pine will last just as long as cedar. Two big differences are the size of the logs and cost. White cedar logs tend to be very short with lots of butt joints. Also they are hard to get any larger than 6x6. For the same price I would go with larger pine. You'll have 4 fewer courses, and less assembly cost and generally a better look IMHO. Pine WILL check more than the white cedar however.
Hope this helps.
Dave

[Kyle - Utah]

Hello Lakeview,

Are you locked in on the 'D' logs yet? If not, check your local area for mills that specialize in the production of posts and poles. This is where you are likely to find full-round logs for much less than the price of 'D' logs. (You can call your local telephone and electrical companies as a start and ask them who they purchase their poles through.)

If you see a log home in your area that interests you, stop by and knock on the door. I don't think that you'll find a better way to learn about log home building than from other peoples' successes and failures. Also, log home owners tend to be proud to show off their homes. You will not be intruding if you say something like, "We're thinking of building a log home and yours is magnificent. May I ask how long it took to build, who built it, etc...?"

I like to think of a log home like a room with hardwood flooring. If you build with full-round then you can always put up drywall. This is just like putting carpeting over hardwood flooring. Still, when you go to sell it or if you just want to change the look you can always rip off the covering to reveal the beautiful wood underneath. You cannot do this if you build with 'D' logs any more than you can if you build with plywood flooring.

I would also like to bring up a little warning about builder warranties. A warranty depends upon the builder being in business when something goes wrong. The exception to this is a warranty backed by a builder's surety bond. In this case the builder must maintain a bond for not less than the length of the warranty offered. The amount of the bond varies by location, but most fly-by-night companies don't want to tie up that kind of money for 25 to 50 years. With a surety bond, even if the builder's company goes belly-up, the money is held in trust to cover any warranty concerns for the duration of the warranty. There are ways that builders can get around this, but they almost always end up in prison if they get caught. So, ask any builder if their warranty is backed by a surety bond. If they are then it should afford you some piece of mind.

As far as the characteristics of Pine and Cedar, they are both good choices. They can both be made to resemble each other. Cedar presents less of an insect problem but Pine usually costs a whole lot less. Both will last for hundreds of years with proper maintenance. Either is far superior to traditional building methods. (IMHO) For me, the bottom line is what my budget will allow. If price is no object then by all means go with the Cedar.

Best Regards

[MikeS]

"I would think it takes more than building one log home to understand this process completely."

Building a house, and building a log home in addition, both take a LOT of experience. Noone is a builder who has built one, or even 10 homes. I have crew who have been with me many years, excellent log craftsmen, but who do not know how to contract and finish a log home. It's the minute details that really count. Those come only from experience and interest in looking for them, namely follow up and evaluation of completed projects.

What happens to the building as the logs dry and settle, moisture and mold issues in modern homes, how to design for long life and ease of maintenance, roof overhang and foundation height, how to develop a building budget and modify the design to meet a client's budget, yet retain the essence of the design, all are issues a good builder understands.

My opinion on the issue of pine vs cedar, based on my experience, plus my college education as a forestry student, and my knowledge of how wood works when it is milled and shaped into a milled log: I would use western red cedar. Not because of rot, but because of stability. Cedar is much more stable than pine. Of all the pines, white pine is more stable than others, but cedar is far better.

A house rots because of overall design, log system, and maintenance, not because it is built with pine.

The real issue of this discussion should be building methods, like corner notching methods, full length vs. spliced logs, seal system, where the check forms and how that effects the log profile, and the ramifications of a milled log system vs a natural log system. But that is another thread.

[Josh]

Mike Wrote
"I would think it takes more than building one log home to understand this process completely."


So correct Mike
I am building my first one - almost finished and done the whole
thing myself. Done many things 2 times - 3 times - measure
3 times cut 3 times etc...
Errors have cost me a fortune but now I know and I will never forget . I will build 2-3 more before I ever GC for a customer. However, it has been fun Mike.

[Tidemobile]

Unfortunately Stephanie is finding out first hand why so few milled Reps. post with any reference to the manufacture! When you manufacture 200-300 homes a year you are going to have a few unhappy customer for what ever reason some your fault some not. The good dealer will find a way to keep all of there customers happy even if it hits the dealer in the wallet. Stephanie keep your head up we all have to start somewhere! Some of the most successful dealers never built a home in there life.

[Kyle - Utah]

Hello Lakeview,

As with most posts in the threads provided, this one seems to have spun off on several tangents. I hope that you understand what everyone is attempting to point out to you. That being namely that there is a lot more to the decision making process than your choice of building materials.

Log homes are much different than conventional homes. They have far fewer areas where contractors and dealers can 'fudge' to add to the final price. This means that they generally attempt to control as many aspects of the ordering process as they possibly can. After all, they have mansions... errr... I mean homes of their own to pay for as well! ;)

I have found that one of the greatest advantages of building a log home over building a conventional home is that the amount that you pay is indirectly proportional to the amount of involvement that you put forth. Of this involvement, it has been my personal experience that the greatest financial gains are made when the homeowner takes control of the purchase of the logs themselves. I am talking about tens of Thousands of Dollars in difference.

On the downside of all of this, there are contractors out there who will not touch a job if they are not allowed to get their cut... errr... I mean purchase all of the materials themselves. Making a fair margin on the labor rates is not always enough to keep several children in Harvard for eight years.

On the upside of all of this, there are also contractors out there who work for a living. They expect a fair wage for a fair day's work. I like to call these individuals skilled craftsmen or skilled artisans. They are also in high demand. This means that you might be required to pay a bit more on an hourly rate for a crew but also that you will save far more than the minor hourly difference than you would lose in graft... errr... I mean product and materials mark-up margin.

A bit of terminology might help you out here. What a financially responsible home owner is looking for is a qualified General Contractor with a crew that is experienced in log home building. What you are not looking for is a 'log home development team', a 'log home dealer', or a 'log home manufacturer representative'. Just as in everything else middlemen take their cut, and the fewer cuts that are taken the less you will pay on the bottom line.

All of this is not to say that you should go out and line up the purchase of all materials yourself. That would require more work than most people have the time and patience to do. It is simply pointing out that you can save a lot of money if you price out the major purchases yourself in advance. In many cases there are contractors' discounts available to professionals that you cannot get on your own. These discounts are intended as the fair materials profit margin for the contractor. And, some general contractors will pass a portion of this savings along to you in order to get your business.

So, the decision of Western Red Cedar vs. White Pine is a small part of a much greater question. That being, "How much involvement am I willing to put forth in exchange for a high quality home at a substantially reduced price?"

Best Regards