Costs

[RaySay]

Ladies & Gents,
I am moving from newborn to 1st grade as it relates to log home knowledge. For those patient souls out there who are born educators (bless you all!), I am trying to make a pass at what an average log home should cost in the Northwest. I realize this is a bit like asking "what is the length of a piece of string", but I need to start some where. Average to me is like a Camry, not a Lexus.
For example, what is the merit of a kit home vs. constructed onsite? With a kit, what is the range for an average interior finish? And finally, what are the five biggest mistakes people make when it comes to building a log home? Again, any and all feedback is gold to me.

Cheers,
Ray

[Susan]

Hi Ray,

I'm in the first grade too, probably just a couple of chairs over from you :)

The one thing I have learned is that asking that question will only add to your confusion. Prices I've read here and elsewhere give $$ of from $95sq ft. to $200+sq ft. (On a 1000 sq ft home, that makes a spread of $105,000.00-a big difference!)

The best method I have found so far is to talk to folks in my area who are log home builders(reps sometimes have this answer, but not always) Also, I made a spread sheet with everything needed to build the home I want (from permits and insurance to finish flooring and appliances) I don't expect to be able to come up with an exact cost for my log home. But, just by calling lumber yards, the county office, roofers etc. I have really had my eyes opened about the costs of materials and labor involved in construction....and I've only gotten about half of my spread sheet filled out so far!

If you haven't picked up any log home books yet, you may want to check out "Complete Guide to Building Log Homes" by Monte Burch................it's a little bit dated but it is a good place to start.

[Tim Bullock]

Ray, Costs are geographic specific......I was just out to Whidbey Island which is in the NW and prices would definitely be closer to the 200/sq/foot mark. Other areas off the coast would be quite a bit less but suggest that Redmond might be crazy pricing as the builders are all busy...............
I would check with builders from the area which you are building and ask for a square foot price for a custom built home with some nice details..........a log home may be slightly more.........Does that help??

[Patrick Jenkins]

Ray,
Tim is correct on how much it could cost. King County will be more. Eastern Washington much less. What part of the state are you looking at? I had a hard time getting any Log Home builders willing to talk to me because I did not want a 5,000 sqf home. When I was looking for land I found my place. So I bought it. I thought I was going to have to somebody like Tim build it from out of the area. Now that I know Dr. Tim does house calls , maybe he will build my next one.
Tim I go up to Whidbey Island once in awhile. Did you go to Deception Pass or Coupeville. I live about 70 miles south of there. In the foothills of Mount Rainer. Land is much cheaper out here. But live on a hill. There is a reason for the Volcano Evac. routes.

[Tim Bullock]

Patrick, We travelled down from Vancouver and went through Deception Pass and exited at Mukiteo after spending a night on Whidbey......Truly breathaking!!!!!! Prospective clients wanted me to view their site for the design phase of the project.........get a "feel" for what they were trying to accomplish.......I took a couple of extra days...........went to the Pikes Market in Seattle and visted Whole Foods.....what a joint!!!!!! I do travel all over North America and if I can make it work.......try and visit a prospective client when I am in the area........I will see Alan when we go to Tahoe to put up a house.......have a peek at his site.
If possible, I drop by and see old clients when I am in the area too........

[Jim Marsh]

RaySay,
I too am from the northwest and I am in the process of building a handcrafted log home. I started out having some quotes done from a GC for a turn key Log home and was quoted $120/sq. ft.
Needless to say I decided to me my own contractor and save some money. At least that's what I thought? I will only be saving
about $25,000 but I had to take a year off work to do this and this doesn't coun't my lost wages I would have made.
Bottom line is that it cost me more but...I had no choice at the time because I was unable to secure the GC because he was starting his own project and I had already started the ball rolling.
But what I did get, was the satisfaction of being able to say I did the whole thing myself. The only thing I didn't do was heating, plumbing, electrical and the excavation. I could have done all this on my own but it would of taken me alot more time.
I also got a first rate job! Alot of the local subs have many poor quality shotcuts which because I was on the job 24/7 I was able to make sure they did their jobs right. I don't recommend the average guy to build his own home because it is very exausting and at times, down right hell. If money was no option, then it would really be alot of fun. It's because you are trying to build a $200 sq. ft. house for $100 sq. ft. price?
5 biggest mistakes: 1. not having an accurate budget, if you are being your own GC for the 1st time there are alot of unforseen
costs. 2. Have your blueprints way in advance 6mo-1year.
Spend at least a year planning and plan for material price increases. 3. Find an experienced builder way in advance and lock
him in with a small deposit or seek legal options to secure him.
4. Work early on with your local planning department and building inspectors.
5. BIG ONE! Give yourself plenty of time with your bank.
If you are going to be an owner/builder most banks will want you to have your property paid off.
Bonus 6. For owner/builders...have at least $50,000 cash or a good line of credit already to go. Draws can and do take time.
Of course if you are planning to have someone else do the GC
(general contracting) with EXPERIENCE!!! Your life will be easier!
Best of wishes on your future Log home.
If it was easy...everyone would build thier dream log home.
Don't let nothing stop you from your dream. Go for it!

[MikeS]

Jim

Your post about your owner-builder GC experience is probably THE BEST and MOST ACCURATE summary I have seen on this board is years. It is hard work, it is not a major profit maker, it takes a lot of time and headaches.

So many log home companies delude owner-builders into believing they can save tens of thousands by being their own GC, and managing the subs. Sounds like you did some of your own work, to contribute to that $25k savings. In order to make a gain on a log house, you not only have to do the GC, but you need to do much of the WORK, including the roof! Hiring the foundation, subfloor, logs, roof, and window install; with the interior framing and finishing left to the owner is NOT a major cost savings.

Satisfaction with building your own home has its rewards, and is valuable. However, a owner builder needs to consider both the financial benefits and his own skill level too in making that decision. As you pointed out, it became your full time JOB, and you quit your normal work to build your home.

My comments come from watching my customers take BOTH approaches. Both owner-builder and hire the GC approach have benefits and pitfalls. You pointed out the reality of the owner-builder route very well.

[Susan]

Alan,
If asking the question only adds to the confusion, that would point out that one is confused to begin with.

That about says it all!
Figuring out the who, what, where, when and how of building a log home is a confusing process! There's a whole lot of choices out there! :confused:

[Dan Bodenstein]

I think it's fair to say that building a log home, whether as owner/builder, or hiring a GC, is not for the weak at heart.

I don't think there is any avenue where all the piece fall into place simply. Building a log home is hard work. But in the end, you get YOUR log Home.

It's very easy to walk into a CBS model home showroom and say I want this house, with this tile , this carpet, these cabinets and this color walls. Sit back and let them build your house.

A Log Home is a unique thing of beauty.
Anything worth doing, is worth doing right!

Dan

[Jim Marsh]

Mike S,
Thanks for the comment, I just hope it may convince others who may decide to be thier own builder to really think it through.
With what I know now, I would consider building a smaller home,
or forget the full basement to keep the costs down. I had to build the full basement because I built on a steep hill. My wild guess is that the basement cost me more than $35,000- $45,000 plus.
My log producer told me I could build the home for around $200,000 and even showed me a nice home that he said cost them around $180,000. One big advantage with a professional
log home bulder is that you know up front exactly what kind of money you will spend. I understand that log producers need to sell log packages but let's be honest with the customers, give them the real facts. I told my log producer what it was actually costing me and he told me that someone he knows spent $400,000 on the same basic home. I guess I could of put in plastic windows and and cheap steel doors but them I would
have hated them. Sometimes I think, maybe I could have worked
harder and say 14 hour days...but I'm 44 and don't seem to be able to work those long hours anymore.
I did have a good carpender help me out and paid him $20/hr.
Don't get me wrong...I love my home and and would never build
anything but a log home. Everyone who sees my home is very
impressed and many people say they have always wanted one.
I will complete my home and love living in it for years to come.
Ps. By the way a nice full size cultured stone fire place with a fancy xtordinair will cost you around $9,000- $10,000.
Best of wishes

[Tim Bullock]

Jim, Honesty up front has cost me a lot of contracts.........not gonna change though!!!!!! Why do school teachers/dentists/engineers and insurance salesmen etc. believe that being a GC is the road to riches??? Why do DIY'ers most always underestimate their own costs? Your basement costs are not even known by you (not picking on you btw).......it is just the way it is..............Doing an 800k project right now.......client doesn't like the GC price that we submitted..........It will still finish at 800k no matter what..........He can twist and shout and get another GC but it still gonna cost 800k........period. Either accept reality in the beginning or let it bite you in the end..............

[MikeS]

"Honesty up front has cost me a lot of contracts........."

Ditto. It's amazing how many log suppliers lead the customers on, very likely in attempted honesty, when the log supplier does not have much of an idea of the final cost. I recall a thread, "How do I become a log home dealer" posted by a first time log home owner. If they become a dealer, they will sell packages to future customers, who assume this new dealer is an expert. They don't have any construction experience other than building their first log home. What experience is that?

How much does it cost? is a very often asked question. The log supplier is pressured to come up with an answer in order to demonstrate industry knowledge and maintain customer credibility.

I firmly believe any log home supplier who does not also actively engage in general contracting has absolutely no accurate knowledge of turn key construction costs. It's hard enough for me to provide preliminary turn key budgets, and I am a log shell handcrafter and a GC. I typically go with similar construction comparisons, and if I haven't GC'd a building similar to the one in question for a year or two, my costs are not so accurate any more. Square foot numbers are not very accurate. There are too many variables.

[Susan]

At the same time it seems fair to use an estimate based on a low of $100/sq.ft. and a high of $200/sq.ft., because sure it doesn't give an accurate estimate, but that's because so many people build so different of a home.

Alan,
Try going to your local bank;mortgage company;loan shark etc. and telling them you need to borrow somewhere between $200,000.00 and $400,000.00 to build your 2000 sq ft log home dream. You're going to get some mighty strange looks! You've got to pin down a number that is a little more firm than that. I'm doing a spreadsheet right now only as a tool to educate myself.....I'd recommend that anyone who is planning on building a home do this........I thought I had a pretty good handle on the cost of materials and labor--until I started taking a good hard look at $$. And I have to tell you........taking a good hard look at the benjamins is key. After all, you can't enjoy your log home if you have to work 3 jobs to pay for it.

I think that a professional estimator (Re: Greg's recent thread)would be a great resource for any DIYer who planned on GCing their own home. I didn't know such an animal existed, one more tidbit for my arsenal, thanks to LHOTI:D

[Patrick Jenkins]

You can also look at it this way. You can pay $200 sqf. and still only have a $100 sqf house. I have been in a few houses that I felt were only worth half of what they paid for it.

[Susan]

Good point, Patrick. I've been in a few of those myself. Makes you wonder where the money went, doesn't it?

[Tim Bullock]

Professional Estimating........We sometimes quote fixed price turnkey projects............No surprises...........That is the final price unless "YOU" makes changes........Regrettably, most folks like fairy tales and will most always take a lower bid (which didn't include this or that).........end up paying the same (if they can).............DIY'ers usually forget this or that OR underestimate the time spent to do a lot of the different tasks.......Cleanup(which we include in the price) on a decent size project can be 15-20k due to the labor involved along with the tipping fees............my 2 1/2 cents worth..............

[MikeS]

I don't think you will find a "professional estimator" who will be available for hire to price out a project for a do it yourselfer. Estimators go to school as part of their general construction training. Most trade school/college trained construction professionals have had estimating courses along with their general construction courses. They tend to work for or are owners of general construction or independent construction companies.

If you can find someone, I would guess you will have to pay consulting fees, ranging from $60 to $120/hour.

One place you find estimators available is at a builder lumber yard. They are better, good, or poor, but they provide lumber and materials take offs from plans. That is probably the best resource available for the owner builder.

If the do it yourselfer wants to hire someone to do the estimates, they are already hiring out a chunk of the work that the GC does. The time and labor to put together a GC quote is very significant. For the builder, estimating is also part of the building process. Mentally the estimator is building the project, and making construction decisions during the estimate. You can't assume that one estimator from one company will be estimating the project in a way that a second company does their construction.

You will not find many GC's who will give you an accurate quote without some sort of committment from the owner that they will have the GC do the construction. If that committment is not there, then the GC often uses the less accurate square foot or similar construction estimating methods for preliminary estimated costs.

The homeowner needs to use the charts they made or that are available from several resources. Estimating takes a lot of time. The GC has many hours in to making an accurate estimate, and the homeowner will have twice or more time. For the diy, plan on at least 100 hours of active time in the process of developing an accurate construction estimate.

A GC can come up with a fixed cost bid, we have done it many times. The homeowner builder simply does not have the experience to do that. It simply is one of the pitfalls. As an added comment, the carpenter or GC who cannot come up with an accurate quote brings to question either his experience with the work, or his general construction experience.

The best resource for the homeowner is the many books on general contracting your own log home. Jim Cooper's "Log Homes Made Easy" is excellent, as are the Log Home Living seminars. Both are worth reading/attending. You will not be a good GC after using these resources, but you will be much better educated and able to tackle the job with fewer pitfalls.

[Susan]

Not if you can qualify for $400k you won't, and if you do, go to another bank. Now if you walk into a bank and tell them you want to borrow money for a home but you aren't sure if you want to spend $200k or $400k, I seriously doubt you'll get strange looks but you'll get some questions thrown at you, so plan to have some answers.

We have a difference of opinion here, Alan. I can tell you that if you sit down with a lender and tell him you want to borrow either 200k or 400k to build your home, you're going to get a strange look. (I spent a dozen years in the retail banking business, didn't do construction loans, but I've seen and heard enough to know that this will happen). You may qualify for a 400k construction loan based on debt/income BUT if you are a DIYer coming in with a spread like that, it will send a red flag up to the lender that says "hey wait, this guy doesn't really even know how much he needs, what else doesn't he know?" If you want the lender to take you seriously as a DIYer, come in like a professional with all your ducks in a row and all your numbers figured out. Then if the lender is an a$$ and won't take you seriously, by all means, walk!

[Tim Bullock]

Susan, I always ask my clients (who are financing) to get the biggest loan possible...........sure is easy to have some left over to pay down the mortgage........sure sucks to have it go the other way....LOL............I never get the "other way" clients as they let someone else do it to them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dan Bodenstein]

Susan, you are correct. Just because someone is preapproved for 400,000.00 doesn't mean the lender will give you 400,000.00.

When we used Waterfield (YUCK!), they wanted to give us a loan for the amount on all the quotes. We told them we wanted 20% more, for overrun. They B.M.C.'d and then gave it too us.

Good thing too since we had 60,000.00 stolen from us.

Banks are not in the business of lending money, they are in the business of making money.

Dan

[Susan]

Alan,
I'm missing something here.........and I'm not quite sure what it is. Be that as it may, I think we're talking about two entirely different things, so maybe it would be best to just call it a day on this one. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus(or so the pop-psychs would have us believe!):)

[Merk]

RaySay, my wife and I consider ourselves new also, we have only been in our handcrafted log camp a little over one year. I think I would offer that one of the mistakes you asked about is the budget. I found the process quite challenging, and we ended up spending more, like everyone told us would happen. Not spending enough time on design work. Here we did well. We did it over and over and over. The design worked out well. Another mistake is not enough study and understanding. After you have been to 4 or 5 log yards, you are an expert, right? Wrong. My wife and I are re-reading Robert Chambers book for the upteenth time and learn more with each read. Another mistake can be the timing issue, meaning your timing to move in may not fit with the timing of the most desired GC---then what, take another builder? And lastly, if you think you can turn over a set of prints to your GC and take a nap, forget it! We watched perhaps 80%, but if we ever do it again I wouldn't take my eyes off any of the work!! Good Luck! We love our cabin and the learning experience was one of the best!

[BradBradstreet]

There are several things here.
[list=1]
There is what we can afford to spend - according to the bank.
There is what we want to spend.
And there is what the project will cost.
[/list=1]
I think folks are confusing these.