Kitchen cabinets---settling issues

[Merk]

At the time of installation (spring,2002), the lead carpenter assured us he knew the correct way to install kitchen cabinets on log walls. Part of the cabinets are on lag bolts on the log wall, and part on a frame wall. The problem is that the corner cabinet is now 3/4" lower on the log wall side than the frame wall side. How should they have been installed and how can the problem be corrected?

[Tim Bullock]

Merk, an easy fix......remove and reattach.......We design a 2" framed wall to support the upper cabinets........this allows for the outlets to be easily mounted and the splashboard to be tile or whatever........Shrinkage does not even come into play.

[BradBradstreet]

Tim, does your 2 inch framed wall go from the counter up behind the upper cabinets? Or do you still allow the logs to show between the counter and the base of the upper cabinets?

[MikeS]

Brad

Link to www.senty.com/images/index2.html to see a typical kitchen cabinet installation where cabinets do not need to be adjusted for settling. A short frame wall is behind the cabinets. If the log builder or a log home specialist is not installing the cabinets, this is the best method in terms of similicity and lack of problems during settling.

Merk

My suggestion is to contact your carpenter who installed the cabinets and tell him you have a problem. All good contractors will be glad to come and fix a problem they created. It's called a "call back". I believe your cabinets will need to be disconnected, then re-attached. You need to do it very soon, so the corner cabinets don't pull apart. It's not too big a job in most cases.

[Tim Bullock]

Brad, We frame the wall and attach it to the base cabinets........the wall supports the upper cabinets...........Having logs between the uppers and lowers is a big pain in the proverbial butt for the electrical............ It is hard to seal effectively but I guess you could chink it...........Mind you..........most of my larger home designs do not have upper cabinets at all........usually windows.....and a pantry somewhere closeby. Upper cabinets are to store things that you never use and didn't really need anyways!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BradBradstreet]

Tim, I normally agree with you - but this time we wanted a different look. Having a nice outside log wall and then covering it was not what we were looking for. Your approach certainly works.

We wanted the logs to show from the counter to the base of the upper cabinets. So, as can be seen in the picture below we stack tons of stuff in there on the counter so we can not really see the logs. The problem with having a larger place is that more people come which means more dishes and glasses. So, we use all the things in the upper cabinets all the time and need more space. We are looking at adding space in the basement for extra sets of china.

The builder did a frame behind the upper cabinets. The electric wires to the microwave in the upper cabinet go up through the logs like all the rest of the wires - no problem. This would work whether the logs were chinked or not.
http://images.fotki.com/v1/photos/8/8235/14956/15_KitchenfromDiningRoom-vi.jpg

[BradBradstreet]

What is interesting I never heard any comments that having logs exposed between the counter and the base of the upper cabinets was more trouble. In watching them do some of the work, my take is this was less work for them. Remember, our logs are not uniform - they are full round and not milled. They would have had to make a uniform wall surface all the way down to the counter. This approach looked "better" and was easier.

[Bob G]

Brad,

Your kitchen photo above relates back to Merk's original question. You have cabinets attached to a log wall (which has settled) that wraps around to a framed wall (which has not settled). Do you know how your builder attached them to the log wall? Perhaps the attaching screws go through slots, as Maestro has explained, and you have periodically raised the cabinets on the log wall to stay even with the ones on the framed wall? It doesn't appear from your photo that they would have raised themselves to stay even with the ones on the framed wall.

Now that I study your photo more, Brad, It's hard to tell where your stud walls take up the settling. You may have a different situation than Merk. My stud walls have a settling gap near the top which keeps the stud wall stationary at wall cabinet level. Sounds like Merk does also. If I had wall cabinets (I don't) I'd have a situation like Merk and would have to make log wall cabinets upwardly adjustable. (Hey, I kinda like the new edit button!)

[MikeS]

Maestro

In the method pictured on my web site, the wall is framed covering the logs. The framed wall over the logs is a 7' wall, which is the height of the top of the upper cabinets. Logs above the uppers are exposed. The left side wall with the refrigerator is a frame wall with no log wall behind, the right side with the sink is an exterior log wall with a 7' frame wall covering the log wall.

The distance between the base of the uppers and the top of the counter top is about 18". I used ceramic tile in our house, in this area. Many other easy to clean and architecturally pleasing materials are used here.

Brad:

Your house is chinked, using dry western logs, and I recall you have had very little shrinkage. I assume the logs are spiked together to restrict shrinkage. This is a different condition.

For those building with a scribe system, the shrinkage is more, because the logs are not spiked together to prevent shrinkage. Leaving exposed logs between the uppers and the counter tops is done, and we do it. However, shrinkage needs to be taken into consideration in MANY ways. Every cabinet end needs to be slotted into the logs or have a custom cabinet built to return into the casing. There needs to be a "shelf" built over the backsplash to allow for shrinkage. It is more difficult to square the cabinets, especially the base units, so you have a 90 degree angle for the countertop corner. It goes on, the details, and the cost associated with it. Skill of the crew is a major factor.

Merk's corner cabinet shrinkage detail that initially starting this discussion is still a problem. The cabinets on a frame wall can be mounted solid, including the corner upper cabinet. The cabinets on the logs can be mounted to the log wall, and connected solid on the BASE of the uppers, and slip joint connect on the TOP of the uppers. The corner cabinet mounted to the frame wall should not be screwed into any adjacent cabinets on the log wall. Shrinkage can happen then, with minimal problems.

However, the problem noted by Merk at the start of this thread is still not prevented. It will still happen. The carpenter needs to come back and re-mount the cabinets on the log wall after shrinkage is done.

If anyone follows my words, you have done well. I have mounted uppers this way, and I have come back and re-adjusted them, as is required for Merk. That is how it works.

Mounting a full kitchen set of cabinets on logs and an adjacent frame wall is both time consuming and expensive, if you have a log house that settles. It often becomes a detail that is decided by aesthetics, ease of cleaning the backsplash wall, and how much the owner can afford to pay the crew building their house.

[BradBradstreet]

Bob, I do believe the picture I posted is close to the same situation in Merk's original post. However, as Mike pointed out we had very little shrinkage. My measurements show about 1/4 to 3/8" of shrinkage for a 9 foot high wall. We did not do much special to account for shrinkage. So, we have not seen the type of situation Merk outlines. We make no adjustments to walls and posts. There is one place we have seen "movement" and that is where the tile countertop butts into the log wall. There is a gap there when the house is very dry inside.

As I look back on this all based on what I know now - I really knew so little then! It worked out well because I purchased the logs from a company that said the logs would be dry and they were. And we used a local builder who focused on quality - thought through everything they did and had experience building log homes (with green logs).

[BradBradstreet]

-m-

I believe the answer is yes the builder installed bucks in the windows and doors. The construction plans showed a detail the builder did not "like" so, they visited another Alpine Log Home going up 30 minutes away to study how those doors and windows were going in. They modified the approach in some way and went forward. I was not in the middle of that discussion so, I can not give details on that. The result has worked out fine. The settling in the house has been minimal. Most people would not see it unless I point out where the paint line on the sheetrock is slightly higher than the log outline.