Group project

[Susan]

I've been talking with Greg and I was wondering if there is anyone out there who would be interested in helping come up with a cost estimating template that LHOTI members could use? I'm thinking that if we used the excel sheet that I've already got, and added stuff, tweeked it, refined it, etc....... with a lot of help from the pros here.......we might come up with something useful. Would anyone out there be interested? BTW, I am not an excel expert, I use it some at work but that's all, so if any of you computer whiz kids want to chime in with some tips, please do!

:)

[Susan]

Alan,
I'm not the best at excel either. My bet is that you are way better at it than I am. And I'm really hoping that some of you guys who are good with computers will steer this project in the right direction as far as the format goes. Also, I'm hoping that all of the builders, designers, restoration specialists, masons, electricians, plumbers etc will chime in and beef up the information so that we include as many line items as possible.

Now, if only I can figure out how to add an excel program to this thread......................................:confu sed:

[Dan Bodenstein]

There are a lot of other things that need to be considered that are local issues.

In Florida, we too required "Engineer Sealed" Plans. Also they have to be submitted to a Plans examiner.

What about Permit fees? That varies from place to place. I beleive our permits were approx. 6000.00

We needed special wind load capacity roof shingles, and one county away requires special windows. (I know of a company that had to replace ALL their windows because of this).

Also things like cabinets and lighting vary per person. Cabinets from a woodcrafter vs cabinets from Home Depot, are two different ballparks.

We also require hurricane protection. You must have it before you get your C.O.

We have special environmental issues here regarding septic/well and the native plants that grow. You must have all mallalucca plants removed as well as others.

I think the idea of the worksheet is nobel, but I think we end up with estimates and rough ideas. We don't want to pass this off to people who may take it as the "bottom line" figure.

We must be careful in what we present. If all we want to do is give people a base understanding, then that is fine.

Dan

[BradBradstreet]

I had two different spreadsheets for my project. The first was an attempt at listing all the different items identified in the different quotes to compare companies, what they included, how the costs compared - and I ended up throwing that away as a futile cause.

The other spreadsheet I ended up using on a daily basis throughout the project. It listed each major item down the left side - from land - to logs - to crane - to each individual lighting fixture and faucet. And where there was a choice I listed every alternative lighting fixture with their individual costs.

So I had a column for item; description; source; price per each; quantity needed; and then the indicator of whether that item was to be included or not. If the indicator was a "0" the math did not include it. If it was a "1" the cost of that item was shown to the right on that line and therefore included in the project total.

When we started I had a set of decisions made resulting in a total cost of the project I could afford. I managed the overall budget by changing what was to be used on the materials list. We started to get over my total allowable budget and the hot tub went to a "0". Got close to the limit again and one brand of lights got swapped out for a different brand. I could see the overall effect of each decision. I was able to prioritize which would be the first to go or get changed for a different alternative. Each alternative was acceptable. It was tradeoffs.

Every Saturday morning I met the GC on-site and reviewed what had been done; what the probelms and issues were; what would be done the next week; when key decisions had to be made (by me); and received copies of the invoices for labor and materials purchased. The project was a Time & Materials deal with percentage fees for certain items, subcontractor management fees, and a cap on labor (which we hit).

The end result was a house we wanted - we were within budget - and ended up friends with the GC.

[MikeS]

I have a spread sheet I use for my GC's that I'd be glad to submit as part of this project. It is quite complete, from many GC's I've done, but there probably are things missing. I've developed it from general contracting in my local community. It is also based on finishing my own log shells, where many detailing costs are part of the log package and not the GC.

There are many sheets like this already out. Cooper's book, "Log Homes Made Easy", and the workbook from the Log Home Living seminars both have very good work sheets.

[Dan Bodenstein]

Mike,

You mentioned Jim Cooper and I remembered he had another book.

Workbook for Managing a Log Home Construction Project
by Jim Cooper

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0970805500.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://www.loghomebooks.com/showmedia.asp?ASIN=0970805500

Maybe this will help.
Dan

[Dan Bodenstein]

Maestro,

Yes 6000.00 for permits and it took 8 weeks to get them.

Plus each time the Plan Examiner required a change, we had to go back to Southland and have them change the plans accordingly. Even though Southland said the changes were not needed. We were always fighting between the county and Southland.

We also have to have a certain amount of hurricane straps on our roofing system.

Simple aluminium hurricane panels can add 3000.00+ to your construction costs.

There are also foundation concerns. We had 18 trucks of fill brought in to raise our pad to the proper height.(80.00 a truckload)
(Remember we are at Sea Level)

So, although a worksheet is a great idea, I don't know if we want to give it out to newbies and give them the wrong idea.
If a program or application was written to accomodate for state wide concerns, that's a different story. But that is more intricate.

Dan

[BradBradstreet]

-m-

If this were a fixed price contract I would have had the total fixed price with my spreadsheet. But, since it was Time & Materials I knew numbers would change as we went. So, I needed a way of knowing what the updated figures were each week to make sure we always knew the total cost - based on the best figures and estimates.

The big variable was labor. No one in our area had ever built a long, round, chinked log home. When all the builders did their estimating they did not know how much variation there would be to the size of the logs and other details. So, we ended up with a T&M contract - with a cap on labor.

In the beginning I could have had 2 spreadsheets - one using the estimated labor and the other being a worst case with the high cap labor figure. We ended up using the worst case numbers since we did hit the labor cost cap. I was hoping to get to a number in between.

[Susan]

Below is the spreadsheet in a jpeg format. If you want to open it and then change it to an excel worksheet, you will be able to add rows, delete rows, etc.
This was originally being used to compare companies, please ignore the companies names(put your own in if youwant) and please ignore the $$ amounts(again, put your own numbers in) the bottom of the sheet is for estimating the amount of material(for those who want to DIY -or- see if the materials they are getting from a log home company are fairly priced). I am still inputting the items into the bottom of the sheet, since most of that was done w/ pencil and paper in my notebook..........I'm sure that I have not been using the most efficient (or accurate) methods for estimating materials so if any of you pros out there have some advice to offer, please do :)



Well, the file won't post because it is too big:( Maybe Greg could give me a hand with this? :confused:

[BradBradstreet]

Susan, is this what you were thinking about? Follow the link to view the output PDF of a spreadsheet at www.LogHomeSolutions.com (http://www.loghomesolutions.com/PDF/CSI-EST.pdf)

Plus, here is a page that has lots of forms. (http://www.loghomesolutions.com/forms.asp)

[Susan]

Brad,
The form on LogHomeSolutions is very similar to what I've been using. (If I'd known about it, I probably wouldn't have tried to come up with my own:) )
I used excel because it is so easy to add or delete items and because you can insert the formulas to calculate the amount of some of the materials (like roofing, stain etc)
Thanks for the link, the forms for DIYers who are going to act as thier own general contractors look really neat!

[Susan]

If anyone is interested, I would sure like some feedback on this.......good or bad;)

[Kyle - Utah]

Hello Susan,

Excel and I are rather good friends. I am a managerial accountant by trade so it's kind of one of those things that I'd better be good at.

As for posting to the Internet, I believe that one of the greatest concerns will come in with the registration aspect of things. Ie. Does the lhoti.com site have a Microsloth errr... I mean Microsoft distribution license, an SQL Server license, or any of the other legal goodies required? ;) If so, I would think that it would be better to port your spreadsheet idea from Excel to a database in Access for a real-time model.

Perhaps a more personalized solution would be for you to distribute an actual Excel workbook that takes care of everything on the users' own PC.

Breaking things down into two categories, variable cost and fixed cost, would seem to be the logical first step. Permits, land purchase, water rights, and so on are obviously fixed costs because they don't care how large or small your project is. The number of logs, nails, screws, and doctor visits that your project will require is where the variables come in. The larger the structure, the more frequently you will need to visit the doctor. If the structure is extremely large then you should factor in visits to a mental health professional as well. Also, as the size of your stucture increases, so do the numbers for items to be purchased.

There are numerous Breakeven Analysis spreadsheets and workbooks available that would serve as a good starting point for most construction budgets. The reason that I choose this format is that it usually includes columns for both fixed and variable expenses. It is then up to the individual to calculate the detailed formulas. (One builder might choose to nail the shingles every 9" whereas another might feel that 12" is just fine. The number of roofing nails used would need to calculate based on the expected usage.)

Creating a 'one size fits all' spreadsheet or database would probably require 120+ hours of dedicated scripting and a good working knowledge of construction. The difficulty comes in specific building code requirements for the many areas where log homes are built. Are 4" headers sufficient in the area where you choose to build or does your area require either 6" headers or 4" glue-lam headers? What is the minimum copper wire requirement for power in your area? Are GFCI plugs required on all outllets or only outside? Can a GFCI breaker be used instead?

I think that you can see what I am getting to. The variables are seemingly endless for a real-time cost calculator whereas a spreadsheet or database that can be 'tinkered with' by the individual is a bit more practical. (Note: If you create a spreadsheet for use off-site then I think that it would be more practical for most users than a database because many people shudder at the thought of manipulating database fields.)

I believe that your goal is noble but that is impractical as far as an accurate model goes. If you are only looking for a rough estimator then I think that a spreadsheet or workbook for offsite use is a really good idea. I think that a spreadsheet compiled by those who have been through the process would be extremely useful for most novice builders! The whole thing is dependent upon people actually taking a hands-on approach to log home building. After all, most people search between various log home building companies and end up saying, "Yes, I would like the completed price for your Model H19 log home please," anyway. Comparing Company A's Model H19 to Company B's Model 32M is comparing apples to aardvarks, so there is no cost comparator that can be made for doing that.

Best Regards

[Greg Steckler]

Here is a somewhat related post/test. I want to see if a new list of Catagories in Excel can be brought before the BB. So here'e the effort. Let me know if you have difficulties. Also, does anyone see any MS legal problems with this approach (as alluded to by Kyle-above)? Don't need Mr. Bill and his 800 pound legal staff bothering me. And lastly, your comments, thoughts, additions or deletions to this catagory list, please?

[Susan]

Trying.........

[Susan]

as we say here in "redneck country" YeeeeHaaaaw
Thanks Greg! BTW, I don't think Mr. Bill will come after LHOTI With all of these big burly log men around here? :D

[Kyle - Utah]

Hello Susan,

I have included a very basic .XLS cost estimation workbook with this post. There are two tabs at the bottom. The "Data Input" sheet is just that. The "Calculated Current Status" sheet is a summary for all of the data that is input. It would be quite easy to add sheets for other comparable projects and to link them to the Status page. Simply insert a new worksheet, copy the Data Input sheet, and paste it to the blank sheet. Then copy the links from the columns in the Status page to blank columns in the Status sheet. (Due to the restrictions of the posting base, I have saved the file in .zip format. Also due to the restrictions, I have changed the .zip extension to read .xls. You will need to manually change the file extension back to .zip after the file is downloaded. Sorry, but it was the only way that I could find to U/L the file with the post. It was too big when uncompressed.)

If you will rename the data input sheet to Data Input 1 before you start, and then name the new sheets Data Input 2, Data Input 3, and so on, you can copy and edit the formulas quite easily. Just Copy the column that you want to duplicate to a few columns to the right, then Move the column that you intend to edit. Then copy the copied column back to the original column. Ie. Copy Column D to Column K, then Move Column D to Column J. Finally, copying Column K back to Column D will restore your original formulas. This will allow you to edit Column J without destroying the original links. (It was easier in the earlier versions of Excel when you could just turn off the Auto-Calc function, but this way will still get the job done without much trouble.) Then make sure to delete Column K so that it doesn't clutter things up too much.

Doing this will allow you to edit [F2] the formulas and just change the 1 to a 2 when the link shows, 'Data Input 1'!D4. Changing it to 'Data Input 2'!D4 will pull up the information that you have entered in the new sheet and you won't have to reinvent the wheel to do it. Of course you'll be doing this in column J just to keep you a bit confused, but it's quite easy with a very small amount of practice.

If you decide to try this then I would suggest that you insert a new Row 1 so that you can identify the individual projects. On the other hand, the workbook as it stands should give the noob log home builder a taste of the budget categories to expect.

Best Regards

[rhagan]

Hey all,

I just stumbled across this thread and wanted to let everyone know that I've already created a cost estimation program, specifically geared to the Log Home industry.

It was a project for Log Home Design Ideas magazine. LHDI sent out a CD in their January issue that had the program on it. At the moment, I don't know how to get a hold of the program, other than by buying the January issue of the mag, but I'm sure it's not easy to find now.

In any case, the wonderful thing about this program is that it is based on XML. If the default fields are too detailed, you can easily change the program with a simple text editor (notepad). If you see something that is missing, you can add it just as easily.

A LOT of research went into making this program. I would suggest looking around for a copy of it. If you know anyone that subscribes to LHDI, they should have the CD.

I should add that this program is a Windows Desktop program, not a spreadsheet, so you'll have to be running a PC with Windows in order to use the program.

[Kyle - Utah]

Hello,

Im I reading things correctly? Are you saying that XML is only available for MS-DOS? The following provides a link to a rather nice XML editor that runs under all known versions of Windows:
http://www.iol.ie/~pxe/

If you are saying that XML is not Apple friendly then you might want to check out http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/oxygenxmleditor.html .

This only leaves the possibility that the particular file was written for a MS-DOS application. Because XML is basically a glorified raw text manipulation utility, porting an existing file from a MS-DOS format to a 32-Bit format should be all but automatic. I believe that Peter's XML Editor includes a utility for converting older files to newer formats, but don't hold me to that.

The original poster's offering would undoubtedly be welcomed if for no other reason than providing something for comparison.

Jumping on someone's case just because something that they offer doesn't interest you seems pretty harsh to me.

Regards

[rhagan]

There are many misconceptions about XML. Let me try and clear this up real quick. XML is basically an idea. It can run on ANY platform, PC, Mac, PalmPilot, cell phone, PC Tablet...anywhere. All XML is is a set of rules for making a markup language, ala HTML.

Obviously HTML (and I should add that HTML is a subset of XML) can run on any platform, BUT you have to have a browser that was built for your specific platform.

So think of the data that I compiled (the XML file) as the web page and the program I wrote (in C++) as the browser. If someone wanted to, they could very easily port my code to a Mac and recompile it and then you'd have a Mac version of the same program. Easier done than said!

In short, XML all by itself is worthless. It requires another, separate program to actually interpret it. The interpreter I wrote only works under Windows.

I hope that maybe clears a little bit up. I'd be more than happy to go into more detail if anyone really cares. =)

[Kyle - Utah]

Hello Again,

I've done a bit of research and found that JTLNET (The Webhosting service used by LHOTI) offers postgreSQL, MySQL, and MS Front Page to its subscribers. Saving an Excel spreadsheet into a database format is quite simple. Saving an Excel Workbook into a database format is a bit more complicated but it's also quite possible.

From there it's up to the powers that be to decide whether to use MS Front Page. If they choose to use MS Front Page then the Front Page Database Interrogator (http://www.microsoft.com/frontpage/downloads/addin/searchdetail.asp?a=226) add-in and the Front Page Database Troubleshooting Utility (http://www.microsoft.com/frontpage/downloads/addin/searchdetail.asp?a=117) add-in can be used to simplify matters as far as database management goes. JTLNET does not offer MS SQL Server to its subscribers. This means that the powers that be would be forced to choose between postgreSQL and MySQL as their database engine for running a Microsoft application. Ouch! (It has been suggested that Microsoft applications do not work and play well with others.)

Whatever database engine the powers that be decide to use, the fact that either SQL program can be easily manipulated using standard PHP makes it a matter of choice to add the real-time cost calculator to the website or not. I believe that the LHOTI site is limited to 15Gb per month without additional fees. That might sound like a lot but it's really not. Adding a single real-time function like this probably wouldn't push the limits of a 15Gb restriction. (It would take roughly 4,000 users per month to 'max out' the bandwidth.) Adding multiple versions could max out the 15Gb limit quite easily.

Proper PHP coding could prevent 'automatic calculations' for every change made. This would reduce the overall bandwidth usage significantly, but the user would need to click on a calculate button to make changes. (Not that big of a deal.) Without this function, every time that a change was made, the entire table or database would be passed to the client machine (user) and then back to the server (LHOTI site). That takes care of the bandwidth problem.

Now comes the really difficult question: What do you want it to do? Is this to be the proverbial, 'compare Apples to Oranges' utility? Is the goal to compare the products of Brand 'X' to the products of Brand 'Y'? Ie. The 2,300 sqft home from Brand 'X' costs $4.19 per square foot whereas the 2,300 sqft home from Brand 'Y' only costs $3.19 per square foot. Is this the goal?

Do you want a utility for calculating the price per square foot for the various log home builders? If so, there are literally hundreds of freeware utilities for doing this. It's as simple as asking Brand 'X' how many square feet there are in the proposed home and what the finished price will be. Then dividing the latter by the former. Do the same for Brand 'Y' and you've got your answer. There would be no fancy database utility required for a real-time version of this. A simple PHP calculator would do the trick quite nicely.

If the goal is an actual proposed budget then things get quite a bit more complicated. If the goal is to create a real-time version of a budget calculation utility then all of that fancy SQL stuff becomes necessary. This brings us back to the simple question of what you want the utility to do.

Best Regards