? design cost savings building up not out

[rgaven]

In many log magazines it says to save $ build up not out.I can't find the thread that Tim Bullock stated the design of all on one level most people liked but designers preferred a loft. This might be the same ? whats a car cost but how much savings is there building up? Can a designer give ballpark figures LOft vs one level ?

[Edward]

I asked the same question before. I was curious about the same issue especially if one is building a simple rectangle.

[Greg Steckler]

Assuming all other features are the same (i.e. vaulted ceiling in both, same number of windows & doors, etc.) I'd say maybe 15-20% {less}.

[Susan]

I’m no expert so take my free advice for what it’s worth What I figured is that if what you are talking about is an open loft with no plumbing, no fancy dormers, no fancy log stairs and railings then it is probably cheaper per square foot to build up. For some that square footage may be really useful. For me, it just doesn’t make sense. Since our site allows us to build a walkout basement, we’re much better off ‘building down’ and finishing the basement. So the bottom line answer to your question is ‘It depends’.

[NRT.Rob]

....and from a heating nerd standpoint, the less surface area you have, the more efficient your envelope is. Building up has far less surface area than building out. And Building down is even better.

[Stephanie]

Ok, so you have a 24x24 foundation, subfloor, logs, cathedral ceiling and roof. You've paid for all that, including all the excavation.

You add a loft: you're only adding a ceiling/floor with joists and a couple more outlets and possibly HVAC registers. You have NOT added more foundation or roof. Of course that will be cheaper than expanding out the foundation, logs and roof along with the rest.

[Edward]

Interesting comments. Speaking purely from ignorance rather than from experience I can not imagine how a simple design (rectangle or square) with a simple roof can not save money when compared to building out. The log shell, roof and foundation are the three most expensive parts of the house and they would each be affected building out. Having said that I can understand how the dynamics can change when dealing with a complicated design and an enormously-sized home.

Cost aside I hear more people my parents age (I am 50) tell me that I am crazy to consider anything other than a ranch. That issue never dawned on me but it seems to me that I'd rather exercise my legs throughout my old age. Use it or lose it. I have almost concluded that a small footprint on three levels works best for me.

[Susan]

Originally Posted by Edward

..................Cost aside I hear more people my parents age (I am 50) tell me that I am crazy to consider anything other than a ranch. That issue never dawned on me but it seems to me that I'd rather exercise my legs throughout my old age. Use it or lose it. I have almost concluded that a small footprint on three levels works best for me.

Just remember that anyone at anytime can become disabled, even just breaking your ankle while rollerblading can mean that you won't be climbing stairs for a couple of months, so make sure that you can live on one level of your home, your doors and hallways (if any) are wide, you have at least one bathroom that has sufficient floorspace for walker/wheelchair use and you have room at one entry of your home where you can have a ramp constructed. (my 2 cents here )

'Old folks' like you and me aren't the only ones who can benefit from planning ahead.

[lisa]

Originally Posted by NRT.Rob

....and from a heating nerd standpoint, the less surface area you have, the more efficient your envelope is. Building up has far less surface area than building out. And Building down is even better.

Building down would be expensive where I am located because it's solid rock on my land. From a heat and air standpoint it might be good but I think the cost savings would be lost on the need to remove the rock.

Lisa

[Stephanie]

Basements are cheaper, but some "buried basements" might not be if excavation won't work too well. Do consider the "above ground basement" though. You see a lot of half underground basements these days with log homes where the front has the basement underground and the back has it fully exposed with the lovely rock facing, which of course is not so cheap, but SO snazzy.

I think I've finally decided on living space all on the first floor. Everything important can be done on the first floor alone. A full basement will have all that extra storage and places for teenagers to have their space, rec room, that sort of thing. And then lofts (without any plumbing) that will be more library areas and overflow areas for parties.

Stairs do have the potential for being a problem. I think it's probably best to have a central first floor. Not to say that you can't have your master on the second floor, but I'd be sure to have a really nice guest room suite on the first floor that can turn into your master suite if that's how life turns out for you.

For resale too, first floor master's are really looked for....

Oh yeah, definitely the larger doors on the first floor and FOUR foot hallways and watch a lot of turns. If nothing else, it helps in furniture moving. My sister bought a really old house and she can't put a DOUBLE mattress upstairs, much less a Queen or King!!! The stairwell is enclosed and very tight. She's trying to figure out what to do now. (Windows aren't big enough. She's debating about cutting the box spring in half on the bottom and then bracing it once it's up there. Though I think folding the boxspring in half might still be too big.)

[JMUBob]

Most King Beds (at least mine) comes with box springs that are in two sections, and you can then fold the mattress in half. I had the same problem and a king bed worked. It took a little work but I got that mattress up those stairs. Now in a week I'm gong to have to move it back down

[Stephanie]

Apparently she's had issues with getting the actual King mattress up too, OR she didn't want that big a mattress, not sure which. These stairs are about 30 inches wide and they make a 90 degree turn and the entire thing is boxed in with a stair case above it to get to the attic, so no head room either. Likely they're not legal stairs if they were put up today, I seem to recall them being pretty darn steep too.

[Edward]

More excellent ideas. I think were to I to become disabled I would be selling any home I built in favor of moving to a downtown area. In my case Saratoga Springs NY. It is likely that the land I get will be more remote or minimally in a rural area and at least around here you better be highy mobile because there isn't much around out the burbs.

[mfritch]

If you build up you get to 'recycle' your construction $$$$$'s. You get to build the roof and foundation once and then use it for 2 and sometimes 3 floor areas. I stress that there are always fixed and variable costs in all construction and this is especially true with logwork. The bulk of the work is in the corner joinery and not what is in between. Stretching a wing of a house 4' rarely costs that much. You've already paid for the gable end overhang anyway. You just have to stay within the constraints of what can be done well with logs.

The arguement that work is easier and cheaper on a house with a lower height is also a variable. If you use a lumber rafter or TJI rafter house design where you will be doing a lot of soffit and fascia work, yes it is cheaper because there is a lot of three-man, over-your-head, every-joint-is-visible, ladder and scaffold work and the higher you are the slower you move. (I know, I just finished doing shingle gable ends and dormers on a house restoration!) This cost increase is not very significant if you are using a log rafter roof system because all of your work is on top of the rafters where you are working with gravity in your favor, all joints are on top of the rafters and once you put down the 2x decking, you are done with the work over your gable ends and eaves. We can race through a log rafter roof system in about half the time it takes to do a TJI roof system and they still have to do the soffit work, insulation and sheetrock or paneling work. Log rafter roof systems are also very pretty to look at. A crazy French Canadian log builder named Jacques Larivier told me about 25 years ago, "You can teach the average gorilla to lay logs, but the real charm in a house and the real log builder show up in the roof system." He couldn't have been more correct.

[Stephanie]

Yes, milled and hand crafted can hardly even be compared. Hand crafted almost always comes with the log builder attached and it's just the opposite with milled.

If you talk to a hand crafter, you have a lot of different aspects of the building process lumped into your price, generally including log labor and very fancy design.

With milled, you are usually talking ONLY materials and simple blue print designs. They'll be made to GENERAL specs which possibly will have to be "upped" for your state or county, and sadly, in some cases, impossible to implement at all -- only working on paper and not in real life. So, really, a milled supplier won't be able to help you at all with a true price, as they are NOT the builder. Sometimes you'll have a builder/dealer which can be helpful, or maybe you'll find a dealer and builder with a good working relationship or maybe just ones who are very willing to work with whoever.

But of course, the more people you add, the more opportunites for problems. But this can happen in the hand crafted too, in that some handcrafted stop at the log/roof work and the rest is to be done by subs/another general contractor/ you.

As always, the home ain't built yet, so how could there be a price? Anyone having "Hurricane Katrina" price changes? Better yet, did you have Katrina/Rita wipe out the whole project? or ruin a stain job? So many things can happen before a home is up.

But, as always, the more you add, the more it costs. There is more to add when you go out instead of up, more layers to the building process, though you could always add more stuff as you go up to also increase price. Pull out one of those price guides from LHL and see how going out will affect more categories than up. But all things being equal, if you just add a loft, you've only added to one layer, not all of them, so less money. Sure, build it out of GOLD and it will be more expensive.... But do you want something to go by or not?