Go Back   Log Homes on the Internet - Log Home Information since 1995 > Questions and Answers
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-19-2003, 04:11 PM
Greg Steckler's Avatar
Greg Steckler Greg Steckler is online now
Grand Poobah (webmaster)
 
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Beer Capital of the World - Bend, Oregon
Posts: 1,662
Greg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this website
Send a message via MSN to Greg Steckler
Arrow Butt and Pass ala Skip Ellsworth

Okay, okay, I know what you're going to say but I have a very good reason for this thread. Most of you know I am of the handcrafted/scribe fit camp but I find my design company in an unusual circumstance...namely designing a limited shrink/settling butt and pass log home ala Skip Ellsworth. My client is adamant this is the method to use. We have done our best to explain some 30 years of experience to the contrary but MUST bow to his wishes.

I will brook no debate on the merits of butt and pass or Skip Ellsworth's methods on this thread. What I want to know from graduates of his school is how to draw his construction style. Trying to take a pro-active approach, does Skip use a "V" notch into the butt? Does he spike with re-bar or what? How often? What is the tallest log wall you've seen built on any of these walls? I've asked via email his website but so far no answer. I would take his course but it is offered too late in the season...we will be done with drawings by then. Sketches by fax at 541-389-6833 would be great. So please answer by email greg@lhoti.com
Thanks in Advance
__________________
Greg Steckler
Webmaster at
Lhoti.com

2253 NE Edgewater Dr.
Bend OR 97701
541-389-4887
Designer
Log Rhythms Moreplans.com

"People underestimate Bob" ~ Raylan Givens
Reply With Quote


  #2  
Old 08-19-2003, 08:16 PM
mfritch mfritch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sandy, Oregon
Posts: 395
mfritch is on a distinguished road
OK, Greg, you opened yourself up for this one. I'll have to scan in my photos and slides of a bunch of Skip's work and post every one of them here. You know darned well what happened to the one across the street from the house that you built in Sisters years ago. Wasn't that in the Indian Ford development? Remember....the one that fell down when the cut in the doors and windows!!!!????? Greg, I have to say that there are some ethics involved in this. Just as I would not design a home using this technique or build one if someone came with the drawings, I think you have to decide whether you're integrity and reputation mean much and whether it can be purchased. Drop the job and tell them to call Skip. They can easily do a web search and connect with him. I cannot even imagine that this is a matter of consideration for you. You are a member of the ILBA and part of the intent there is to do your chosen line of work for the betterment of the craft and this ain't that! Sorry, Greg, but you were the one that posted this. You should know that there are people out here that disagree. It just isn't about money and because the clients want it. Maybe you can put some LP siding on it too,
__________________
Mark Fritch
Mark Fritch Log Homes
Box 1720
Sandy, Oregon 97055
503-668-7130
mfritch@loghomz.com
www.loghomz.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-19-2003, 10:01 PM
blue eyed devil's Avatar
blue eyed devil blue eyed devil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bear Lake, B.C
Posts: 572
blue eyed devil is on a distinguished road
He should stick with Karate!
__________________
Panta Rei
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-20-2003, 11:16 AM
Jeff Kyger Jeff Kyger is offline
Mr. Self-employed
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 189
Jeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to beholdJeff Kyger is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Jeff Kyger
Skip Skip

Thank you, Devil.

Perma-Chink Jeff
__________________
Jeff Kyger, Bellevue, WA
LogHomeContractor@comcast.net
www.NorthwestLogHomeCare.com
425-562-6666
425-891-6665
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-25-2003, 05:50 PM
Greg Steckler's Avatar
Greg Steckler Greg Steckler is online now
Grand Poobah (webmaster)
 
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Beer Capital of the World - Bend, Oregon
Posts: 1,662
Greg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this website
Send a message via MSN to Greg Steckler
Split rings

I may have a solution: vertical logs every 20-30 feet bolted to each wall log using 7/8" bolts and 4" split rings on smooth married surfaces. Seems my point loads won't exceed 24,000 lbs at the eave and each wall log only adds 1500 lbs or so total load on vertical log won't exceed 40,000 lbs or so. Comments?
__________________
Greg Steckler
Webmaster at
Lhoti.com

2253 NE Edgewater Dr.
Bend OR 97701
541-389-4887
Designer
Log Rhythms Moreplans.com

"People underestimate Bob" ~ Raylan Givens
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-25-2003, 07:43 PM
Patrick Jenkins Patrick Jenkins is offline
Provocateur Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Orting Washington
Posts: 536
Patrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to behold
Huh? Did we miss something? Where did the split rings come from? Now I ain't no Pro so take it easy on me.
________

Last edited by Patrick Jenkins : 10-14-2011 at 02:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-25-2003, 08:23 PM
MikeS's Avatar
MikeS MikeS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Grand Marais, MN
Posts: 327
MikeS is on a distinguished road
Hermann Phelps, "The Craft of Log Building", vertical tie log system. See your fax and post for others to see.
__________________
Mike Senty - Senty Handcrafted Log Homes - www.senty.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-26-2003, 04:05 PM
free man free man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2
free man is on a distinguished road
hello all, newbie here, but i just had to register when i saw the comments regarding skip ellsworth. at the risk of alienating anyone i feel compelled to speak my mind regarding this matter
first of all i would ask skip's critics:
a. have you taken his class?
b. have you ever built a model using his techniques?

the most probable answer to these questions will be:
a. no we haven't
b. no we haven't built a model (butt and pass)

WELL I HAVE DONE BOTH!! and i also have built three homes using his techniques and they work better than you could possibly imagine!!

first of build a model of a butt and pass style home
then build one using notched method (any notched method)
now take the model of the notched method and place it on it's corner and stand (that's right STAND) on it! whoops! fell apart didn't it?
now try the butt and pass model i can not only stand on it (185 lbs.) but also bounce!!

i would imagine that anyone bashing mr. ellsworth is probably a "kit home" dealer/builder, since skip has de-bunked alot of their
techniques. sour grapes??hmmmm.now c'mon and let me have it
boy's
yours truly,
f.m.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-26-2003, 04:09 PM
free man free man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2
free man is on a distinguished road
oh sorry i forgot, to blue eyed devil
skip is not a practitioner of KARATE he is an expert in
jeet kun do a method developed by bruce lee and taught to skip
by bruce himself.
most KARATE students couldn't whoop their way out of a wet paper bag. SEE!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-26-2003, 04:24 PM
Patrick Jenkins Patrick Jenkins is offline
Provocateur Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Orting Washington
Posts: 536
Patrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to behold
Free Man,
I hear the bus shifting gears and it is headed your way. Good Luck.
________

Last edited by Patrick Jenkins : 10-14-2011 at 02:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-26-2003, 05:12 PM
Paula-in-CO Paula-in-CO is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 133
Paula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to beholdPaula-in-CO is a splendid one to behold
Not one kit builder had replied

Free Man, none of the people above your post are kit dealers.

Why would I want to put my house on its side? Seriously, Just what does that tell me? Just wondering.

FYI, I'm a log homeowner with a kit house.

I think a lot of people have successfully built skip houses. They must work fairly well or people wouldn't keep building them! But I'm still wondering why I care how my house perfoms on its side!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-26-2003, 05:16 PM
Patrick Jenkins Patrick Jenkins is offline
Provocateur Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Orting Washington
Posts: 536
Patrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to beholdPatrick Jenkins is a splendid one to behold
Paula-in-CO,
I think he was saying make a scale model to show the strength of the structure.
Sounds like a bit of a challange to me.
________

Last edited by Patrick Jenkins : 10-14-2011 at 02:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-28-2003, 08:16 PM
Greg Steckler's Avatar
Greg Steckler Greg Steckler is online now
Grand Poobah (webmaster)
 
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Beer Capital of the World - Bend, Oregon
Posts: 1,662
Greg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this website
Send a message via MSN to Greg Steckler
Back to original post, please

Dear free man,
No is putting down Mr. Ellsworth's style of building or his lifestyle. I am trying to draw Skip's style and be faithful to my client AND get the structural engineer who's stamp we must have inorder to build, into a state of mind in which he can be confident that the design meets all structural code issues. Now that means seismic, snow, wind and soil.

So if I might ask, in butt and pass of large logs (20-30" diameters) do you do some kind of marriage cut or "v" into each log at the corner to minimize calking?
__________________
Greg Steckler
Webmaster at
Lhoti.com

2253 NE Edgewater Dr.
Bend OR 97701
541-389-4887
Designer
Log Rhythms Moreplans.com

"People underestimate Bob" ~ Raylan Givens
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-30-2003, 05:12 PM
mfritch mfritch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sandy, Oregon
Posts: 395
mfritch is on a distinguished road
I cannot believe that there is still a conversation going on about the butt and pass/Skip Ellsworth issue. Greg, you never responded to my inquiry about your experience of one of these houses that was built and then self-destructed across the street from the house that you built in Indian Ford near Sisters, Oregon in the early 1980's. Do I have to dig up, scan my old photos and post them to prove that this system is crap!!??

I do know of Skip and met him several times in the early 1980's. He makes some great claims; look at his website and you can get a sense of the self-acknowledged greatness. You might ask yourself why he would not allow anyone to photograph or video tape any of their work during his classes on his site. If a person pays the tuition for a course and wants to record their work and get some shots of the people in the course with them, it seems to me that it would not be a big thing. I encourage it in any course that I teach.

Skip used to have open houses at his teaching site. I tried to go to one of the open houses at his site with a friend of mine and we were told that we were not welcome to come. As to Skip's courses, I tried to register for one of the courses and was declined admission. I'm left with a pretty low appraisal of a course when the instructor doesn't want someone that is skilled to take the course. By the way, I did assist some friends of mine build an entire house using this system in Sweet Home, Oregon in 1979. The results were mediocre at best and the design produced a house of limited lifespan. Two months ago I was also asked to bid the reroofing on a log home. When I got on site I discovered that it was built in this style. After looking at the structure, I was convinced that the structure was in need of so many other repairs that didn't justify the installation of a new, quality roof.

My question is still, "Why would anyone in their right mind want to build using this system when the results are of questionable value?"

Please don't ask me to post the photos since it would be a waste of my time. Greg, do you have any that you've converted to digital?
__________________
Mark Fritch
Mark Fritch Log Homes
Box 1720
Sandy, Oregon 97055
503-668-7130
mfritch@loghomz.com
www.loghomz.com

Last edited by mfritch : 11-30-2003 at 05:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-30-2003, 11:06 PM
Greg Steckler's Avatar
Greg Steckler Greg Steckler is online now
Grand Poobah (webmaster)
 
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Beer Capital of the World - Bend, Oregon
Posts: 1,662
Greg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this websiteGreg Steckler All knowing, all powerful, at least on this website
Send a message via MSN to Greg Steckler
Some clarification.......

Mark,
The house that you refer to which was attempted across the street from one of mine, was indeed of the butt and pass method, although to the best of my knowledge was never the result of a Skip Ellsworth class. I may be wrong here, but I don't beleive any of the 3 ahhh gentlemen, who tried to build the house ever went to ANY classes. It was refered to as "the-house-that-fell-down" locally and absorbed into local legend. The logs were salvaged and incoporated into a lovely scribe-fit log home some 12 miles away from the original site.

In spite of my best efforts, my client is determined to use this method. If he cannot be turned then it is my job to be creative and figure out a way to make it sound, as elegant as possible, structurally viable, and long lived. We have some solutions we are flying past the engineer this week that may have some merrit...essentially turning it into a post and beam structure. I look at this project as a real challenge. Figuring out "new" things is what I like to do and this project will test my abilities. Anyone can refuse a job, but not for me this time...I like the "stretch". I will keep you posted.
__________________
Greg Steckler
Webmaster at
Lhoti.com

2253 NE Edgewater Dr.
Bend OR 97701
541-389-4887
Designer
Log Rhythms Moreplans.com

"People underestimate Bob" ~ Raylan Givens
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.